Another thread was discussing one rather questionable website which facilitated and promoted actual cheating on a spouse. I found myself really angry because I felt what this man was doing was tarnishing the marriage vows. I was angry because he was married and had children BUT chose to do this for notoriety.
This morning while having coffee with a few of my BFF's we discussed this and my anger was perhaps valid BUT we did find that what was the largest dilemma was the vast differences in interpreting what actually cheating on a spouse is.
There was a stance that online flirting was cheating but another felt it was harmless. There was a feeling that as long as nothing becomes "physically" exchanged then it isn't cheating...but another disagreed. One friend felt that anything her man did, whether it was flirting in a chat room, looking at porn online, or sending an email to another female with content not work-related was actually cheating.
This conversation then went to sex. My patients where I volunteer at a free clinic have some interesting ideas about that and I shared them. One view was that as long as neither party actually touches the other (I am guessing mutual masturbating) then it isn't cheating and nor is it having sex...........Yikes. I had a high school student tell me a few weeks ago that sex involves only penetration however oral activities do not count as having actual sex and when I pointed out that penetration of the mouth does occur then....she seemed stumped for a few moments and then said...."nope I don't see that as sex."
The of course the conversation turned to what exactly are the boundaries we set in relationships. One BFF said that her man could watch porn all day on his computer as long as he didn't contact anyone there and "saved" himself for just her. Another felt that flirting with others was innocent fun and as long as it stayed in the "flirting only" category.
So then we found that our interpretations of "flirting" was very different. One felt absolutely no flirting should happen with anyone that was not your partner. Another felt flirting was fine as long as it was not people they worked with. Still....is flirting with a perfect stranger permissible? How far is being attracted but pleasant with someone that is a stranger go before it is flirting?
Ultimately I told them I felt that the whole issue behind all of this is out perception of how strong our relationships are. I don't feel threatened when my man checks out another woman and I have been known to say..."Dang she/he is H O T" and my man does the same. Is that flirting, cheating, or is it just appreciating the landscape? I have always had the mind-set that if some other woman took my man then he wasn't really mine anyway...so good riddance. Flirting has got me out of speeding tickets and discounts on tires. My husbands flirting has gotten us free tickets to some great concerts. Is flirting bad if it is done merely in order to "get" something? Probably only if you aren't so great at flirting.
I spend a tremendous amount of time on the internet as so does my IT Guru husband. We don't go check out what the other is viewing but after coffee this morning I came home and we did out of curiosity. What we found didn't alarm either of us. That is not to say we confine our interests to those which wouldn't raise an eyebrow for other people.
I think I'd be more worried if I discovered he was looking at anarchist gun groups instead of some pretty lame erotic stories. He was astounded I spent so much time here on sugar....so he checked out sugar and shook his head. "Why on earth would there be so many people in a fashion site talking about politics?" "We are more than just pretty faces" was my reply. We may be slightly interested in "what not to wear" but we tend to get all hot and bothered over anything with the words "racist" "czar" "extremist" or "Obama" in it.
While we checked out sugar together he made the following statement..."If women want to be taken seriously why do they create websites like sugar?" and before you all react and start typing comments about what a narrow-minded statement that was I should perhaps let you know he was not looking at our little piece of sugarland when he said that. It simply demonstrates that people have diverse interests.
Which brings me back to that previous thread about a website dedicated to cheating on a spouse. Together he and I agreed that anyone that would have to resort to a website to find someone to cheat on a spouse with probably is a little "challenged" with real people skills or the ethical boundary would have found them another way to do the same thing without the internet.
We think it is full of people who are curious but would probably never actually go meet someone to actually "do the deed"....and those that do....are the same losers they would have been had they not found that website. They are probably the "singles" pretending to be "married"......like "marrieds" seem to do in "singles" sites.
The internet can be a thing of great power. It can build and it can destroy. Human nature....the unethical parts of people... will do what comes natural to them. I guess I shouldn't find it so surprising that this man made a website to help people cheat on spouses.
My initial reaction of anger.... I finally realized was about using a tool like the internet...to cheat.... makes us realize how many predators are out there. It was a "they are not doing THAT in my back yard" reaction which was just plain silly.
My husband's exe had cheated on him and it started over the internet...and then bloomed into a full-blown affair....and it didn't matter that they were a million miles apart. She would have done this even if there wasn't a way to do it over the internet because that is where her ethic boundary is.
Yes...I have good friends who have cheated on their mates. It never ends well and I feel bad for the pain which is caused for everyone involved. Does that make them bad people? No it simply makes them human. Those friends who have cheated always have that sore spot that never goes away.
What makes this man different from them? The fact he does this openly in front of his children and that he encourages others to do the same....he has no ethical bone in his body....he has no real conscience or accountability.
Because there is such a vast and different interpretation of "cheating" or actual "sex" it underlines the need for conversations between couples....they must occur about this so they are one the same page so-to-speak. I would never have guessed some of the reactions of my BFF's at coffee over this topic and now I wonder if their spouses would be as surprised too. Innocent flirting by one may seem to be actual cheating to another....and that is huge.
What are your thoughts on this?
Karen Millen
as Dr. Phil once said cheating is "anything that you do with another person, either online or in person, that you wouldnt do in front of your spouse"
I have to agree with that.
1I never would have thought you to be a Dr Phil person CG.
I like that definition. Thanks.
2he has his moments!
3I agree with CG.
4First an observation, good luck trying to convince my wife that oral sex is not sex, and therefore not cheating.
Second a personal story. Shortly after I retired and moved to Washington, I started on line with AOL. During one of my chat room visits, I believe it had something to do with literature, one of the folks in there turned out to be blind, and aged 16. Her mom had bought her a voice synthesizer so she could hear what was being typed. Turned out she had a love for poetry. Another hidden vice of mine, I do too. We talked poets and poems, and I would laboriously type up poems she expressed an interest in, and Email them to her. A few weeks later I got a letter from her mother thanking me for what I was doing for her daughter, and met in the Seattle chat room, where we found we had similar senses of humor, and I found out she was brilliant. Three months after we met she found she had non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Through a series of medical malpractices, she did not receive proper treatment. (so much for “coop” medical practices). If you live in Washington RUN NOT walk from GHI . She had her large intestines removed because the doctors thought she had only a month or so to go, and it was not worth the effort to deal with a small perforation, and she went blind in one eye, because they gave her the wrong medicine. This women then lived five long years, not being able ever to go home again, because of her being hooked up to tubes. During that time we became extremely close to one another. She told me that I was the only person she could really talk to without being “mommy”. With me she could cry, rage, express her fears, and not put up a brave front. Before the end, she had told me the details of her entire life, good and bad. She once told me that I and possibly her daughter knew her better then anyone ever did. One of the promises I swore to was never to reveal those details to anyone. My wife knew all about her. Her family on the other hand did not understand our relationship one bit, and had a deep and abiding dislike, to the point that despite promises made to her, they did not tell me when she died, nor tell me about the funeral. I will share just two notes she sent me. The first she sent me after her family let her know what they thought about me, and the second her very last message to me, before she died.
Dear Norm,
We met by circumstance, not chance.
You came along when I needed to re-learn that it was possible to love someone again. Although things did not turn out the way I wanted them to, I did gain someone whom I will forever call "friend". You are, and will always be a VERY special person in my life. There is no distance between us that would keep me from being there for you, as you were for me. And even though you've never actually verbalized the words "I love you", I hear it loud and clear everyday when I think about all the ways you were there for me. Some people were meant to be lovers, others were meant to be friends.
Much love to you always Kat
This was the last line of a brief note she wrote, at 2:47 am. She knew her time had come, and they were taking her to the hospital:
Don’t ever forget me Normy and I will never forget you. I will come help you cross over when your time comes if I can and you can tell me a story and I promise not to kick you ... well not hard anyway. Thank you Norm, a very sincere thank you .. I love you, Kat
My point in relaying the above, you can love more then one person and each a different way, a spouse, parent, sibling, your children, each a different way. I guess in the above case it was a case of BFF. Neither of our marriages were ever in danger, and if there had been a miracle, I bet you dollars to donuts, she and my wife would be close personal friends too.
Her family………who knows?
The thing is over the years I always made a point of telling folks how great my wife is, never hiding the fact I was happily married. When my wife would meet my coworkers the females would invariably say something to the effect of “Your husband has said so many nice things about you.
I also had an IRONCLAD rule, never go out with a female alone after work. If we were going to go for dinner or drinks it had to be a group. I would have lunch on occasion with a female, but it was back to work after lunch. It was not because I felt there would be temptation, but I did not want people to see me alone after work with a female companion.
5LOL..I just read a post by TS in the other thread and wish it were here.
Did I just say that? Yup.
6I completely disagree. I wouldn't flirt with some guy in front of my spouse, but I don't think that's cheating. Having a conversation with someone nice isn't a big deal.
7Grandpa....you made me cry.
8flirting is different than a conversation dont you think?
I know what cheating is firsthand, and I know all the excuses that come with it!
9no flirting can be as simple as a conversation.
i think everyone knows what their line is when they've crossed it. but to me to say ANYTHING you don't want your spouse to see is too restrictive and not realistic.
my spouse probably wouldn't want to see me batting my eyes and smiliing wide at a cop to get out of a ticket. that doesn't make me a cheater.
10I see what you are saying Haus, to me its not a matter of what my spouse wouldnt want to see, cause believe me I have done many things drunk in front of him that he could eyeroll for a thousand years, its a matter of doing something with another person that he would get his feelings hurt about, and feel betrayed. Thats the kind of thing that I am referencing.
Heck I flirt with the deli guy to get him to fudge the wieght of my cheese. and my hubby thinks its funny.
11see thats why i don't like the "anything" part of that phrase. its too broad.
now if it was "anything that would hurt your partner to see"
well that's different.
12maybe i should change dr phils quote to make more sense!
13I think we can all agree that cheating is all relative to each unique relationship. Every one has their boundaries. IMO checking out attractive others is absolutely harmless with respect to my relationship. That is biology and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. If you see some one you're attracted to you're attracted to them simple as that. When my partner and I are together and we see a hot guy sometimes we just look at each other and say DAAYUM He is hot! LOL.
My partner does not but if he did like to look at porn as long as it wasn't obsessive amounts I would care less because it would serve his fantasy which in turn serves our sex life.
As for flirting our rule is if the flirt even comes to any type of verbal communication if the person approaches us. Just let them know right off the bat we're in a relationship but it's okay to accept the flirt with flattery and pay them a compliment back. No need to be paranoid or guilty about it just be polite and move on. I/we have found that it makes it much easier to bring things like this up and be open with each other about it.
As for Internet conversations. If they are having them and they talk to you about them I wouldn't worry. If you know they're having them and they do not talk to you about them, worry.
14That whole situation where young people (dang that makes me feel old to say) seem to draw some really skewed differences between what is considered sex and what is not... and it is something I find worrisome.
Having three teens that does indeed mean we have had some pretty specific conversations so they aren't so mislead about risk factors. I am lucky I guess because I have always been very open about conversations (age appropriate) ever since they were born.
Many of their friends come ask me questions they are uncomfortable asking their own parents which leads me to believe that MANY people aren't having conversations with their kids until it is long past the time they need them.
The questions I field from adults on this subject astound me too. Misinformation about sexual activities can result in death. That may seem a little dramatic to say but it is true.
15Damn, you mean you you don't let kids learn about sex on the street, the Good Lord intended?
16Heck no. You wouldn't believe the stupid things that I hear on a daily basis.
There should be a billboard next to every high school that proclaims: YES you can get pregnant the first time! as that is the most common misconception.
Dang I missed a perfectly good pun in there somewhere.
17WHAT, you can pregnant the first time????!!!!! Crap the next thing you are going to say you can still get pregnant if you have sex standing up.
18What, you can get pregnant the first time???!!! Next you are going to try to tell me that a girl can get pregnant having sex standing up.
19Fallacy of the Phallus. There are many.
20Yeah right, next you will tell me size matters.
21It only does when it does. Sort of goes hand n hand with small minds.
22Haus, I agree with you ... after reading your conversation with CG - I think that small clarification in there is important.
23I flirt with guys, but I don't think I am cheating.
Maybe it also has to do with seeing rather than hearing about. My guy knows I flirt, but I don't think he'd want to see it. He has no problem with it... just not something he wants to see.
Does that make sense?
My husband just laughs. I never understood women that got man if they caught their man checking out someone else. My husband and I play games like "find the best hiney" or "look there's a rug" all in fun.
24That's such a sweet story, Grandpa. Thanks for sharing.
25as Dr. Phil once said cheating is "anything that you do with another person, either online or in person, that you wouldn't do in front of your spouse"
I must agree as well *CG*
Cheaters can make up so many dumb excuses to justify what they immorally do.
26My husband and I don't believe our little game of "find the best hiney in the crowd" or "look there is a rug" or even better,"natural or implants" is immoral...perhaps twisted fun?
I think people LOOK and it is human nature to do so and with that in mind we look together and make a game out of it. I have seen men check out another women and their date freak out....and yes I can see that as being perceived as rude and insensitive...but it is just not something I get upset about.
Football games I checkout the hineys and my husband is checking out the cheerleaders....but that doesn't mean either of us would go after them. Why would we? We are perfectly happy with each other.
27If he doesn't do these things openly, it means that he himself considers it cheating in one way or another.
28cheeky, my hubby and I do the same. If I see a chick with big boobs and is showing them to the world, I say "holy boobage batman!" we also disagree about whose are real or fake. My husband always thinks they're real, boys have no clue!
29Guys can't get passed the "oooh" factor of big boobs. They want to believe they are real...or just don't care.
When I was single, one man I dated ONCE asked me on that date if I had any "work done" and when I asked "why" he said "Because I want a real woman"....boy was he confused. Do fake boobs make a woman "fake?"
I am thinking you are either genuine..the person you appear to be is YOU...or you aren't. Bits of improvements do not make you less genuine.
30I am more of an ass man then a breast man. My attitude has always been anything more then a handful is pretty much a waste
31So Grandpa....do you and G'ma play the point and look game?
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