PHOENIX - Bartender Randy Shields was serving British brews and Arizona ambers as usual at Shady's bar in east Phoenix when he saw a customer walk in with a hunting knife strapped to his hip.
A disturbing image flashed through his mind — "that knife sliding between my ribs."
The customer willingly turned over the knife while he was in the bar, but Shields still worries about a new Arizona law that goes into effect Wednesday that will allow guns into Arizona bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.
Restrictions
Under the law, backed by the National Rifle Association, the 138,350 people with concealed-weapons permits in Arizona will be allowed to bring their guns into bars and restaurants that haven't posted signs banning them.
Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol.
The new law has Shields and other bar owners and workers wondering: What's going to happen when guns are allowed in an atmosphere filled with booze and people with impaired judgment?
"Somebody can pull the trigger, then a bullet comes out, and people get hurt and killed," said Brad Henrich, owner of Shady's, a popular neighborhood bar that sees occasional minor scuffles. "The idea of anyone coming in with guns in a place that serves alcohol just seems ludicrous."
A sign that says "No Firearms Allowed" and shows a red slash over a gun now hangs next to Henrich's liquor license. If a bar owner does not post such a state-approved sign, people with concealed weapons are allowed in with their guns.
There is no way to track how many of Arizona's 5,800 bars and restaurants that serve alcohol have posted such signs. The Arizona Department of Liquor Licensing and Control has signs available for download on its Web site and doesn't track that figure.
The department has provided 1,300 signs to bar and restaurant owners who went to the department in person or asked to have signs mailed to them.
Some say signs look ‘scary’
A similar law took effect in July in Tennessee, with the same reaction from many bar owners who posted signs banning firearms. The NRA says 41 states now allow guns in businesses that serve alcohol.
"I hate to have to put them up," Mark DeSimone, owner of the Hidden House Cocktail Lounge in central Phoenix, said of the signs. "It looks scary. It looks to somebody like, should I go in this place because they obviously have a problem with people bringing weapons in."
DeSimone has signs banning guns next to his liquor license and outside the bar.
He said every bar owner should be concerned about the possible consequences of allowing anyone into a bar with a gun.
"You don't want people to even have a stick," he said. "When I take steak knives out (for customers), I look for the ones that don't have pointy ends."
Taking a gun into a bar banning the weapons would be a misdemeanor punishable by up to 30 days in jail and a fine of up to $500.
But the law includes a partial legal defense. A person would be exempt if the sign banning guns had fallen down, the person wasn't an Arizona resident, or the notice was first posted less than a month earlier.
J.P. Nelson, director of the NRA's western region, said people with concealed-weapons permits have the right to protect themselves by bringing guns into bars and restaurants.
"Bad things happen in bars and restaurants," Nelson said. "People want to carry a gun and if the facility owner doesn't have a problem with it, there shouldn't be a problem. If a person starts drinking and gets in a shootout and kills someone, of course they're subject to criminal prosecution."
Supporters: ‘It's a deterrent’
Marc Peagler, owner of the Silver Spur Saloon Restaurant in Cave Creek outside Phoenix, said he will allow people with concealed weapons permits to carry in his business, and Silver Spur will be safer because of it.
"It's a deterrent," he said. "In the criminal element, there is some logic that says when people look at a place that they might want to rob, the ones that have big signs up that say 'We do not permit firearms' would be the first target.
"They know there's not going to be anybody in there that can stop them," he said.
Arizonans are also allowed to openly carry guns — on a belt or holster, for example. Those people still won't be allowed in bars or restaurants serving alcohol under the new law if they're armed.
Source: MSNBC
Paul's Boutique
Weapons and booze are a great mix.
1They all deserve anything that happens next.
2There's plenty of states that already do this and they are fine.
3If we're worried about deaths then we shouldn't allow those who arrive in cars into bars and restaurants that serve alcohol. They will kill infinitely more people than someone carrying a gun.
4"Those carrying the weapons aren’t allowed to drink alcohol." Right, I don't believe this will actually be enforced. Bartenders and servers aren't suppose to serve visibly intoxicated people, but they do.
It is clear from the article that bar owners/worker, the ones who will have to deal with any consequences from this, clearly do not support it.
5Uhhh one guy did, and this IS MSNBC so I'm thinking they weren't really concerned with showing those who do support it. Besides, they can put up a sign if they want so it doesn't have to change anything for them.
I really don't see the problem.
6There are three people in this article who are against it Haus. And a search for other articles show that most bar/restaurant owners are opposed to it.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/05/08/national/main5001150.shtml
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/145062
http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2009/jun/05/bill-triggers-emotions/
7It doesn't matter. If they don't like it, they can put up a sign. It costs them nothing. Who should they listen to the restaurant owners or the voters?
But it works fine in other states, so the fear isn't based in reality, only in theory.
8Besides, with the immigration violence and drug/gang violence some of those border towns see, you'd be stupid NOT to carry.
9Guns in bars remind me of Westerns. I just imagine people wearing cowboy boots and spurs walking into taverns circa 1872 with their shooters holstered over their vest. Anybody else get that imagery popping into their head?
10Now Skeeter he ain't botherin' nobody!
11btw, I totally agree it sounds crazy and like it would be a really bad idea. but it seems to be fine with the other 40 states that do it, so i don't see why arizona would be any different.
12I can see it Kas, then I start to wonder why the people of the Old West started enacting gun control measures.
13
14I don't get it, it works in 40 other states. Why are we clinging to fear here?
15Is "clinging to fear" the new buzz phrase?
16"Besides, with the immigration violence and drug/gang violence some of those border towns see, you'd be stupid NOT to carry."
I don't think we are the ones clinging to fear.
17No but I just don't understand why everyone is ignoring the reality that the other 40 states are perfectly fine.
It's like that part doesn't even exist. It's completely being ignored.
So I mean, have your opinions, but how can it be taken seriously when such a huge fact is just blatantly ignored?
18And I don't cling to fear. I take charge of my own safety, in that comment it's because of the facts that I choose to think that way, not in spite of them.
19One could argue that the fact that you feel you need to carry a gun to feel safe is "clinging to fear".
20Again, BECAUSE of the facts. Not because of the fear. Huge difference.
21Can you say you fear this law because of the facts?
I don't think so. Since the facts clearly point to this being ok in practice.
22So you don't carry a gun because you fear being attacked?
23No I'd carry a gun because I like to be in control of my own safety. I don't want to depend on someone else who doesn't care about my safety as much as I do.
Having AAA doesn't mean you fear breaking down, it means you want to prepared just in case.
24But all of that is off topic and besides the point that this law is fine and is fine in 40 other states so there is no reason to act like it's something terrible when it's not.
25What are you preparing for with carrying a firearm? What facts support the need for someone to be armed in their daily life?
26That's not what this thread is about.
Look, if your opinion is "Guns are bad and I don't like them, no matter what facts say" that's fine because all I seem to be getting out of this.
27I don't think guns are bad, but I don't want them in public places, especially ones where judgement may be impaired.
"...allowed to bring their guns into bars and restaurants that haven't posted signs banning them."
Of the 40 States where it is legal, how many bars actually allow gun owners to bring them in? It seems to me the law (at least in Arizona and Tennessee) allows the owners of the establishment to post a sign that says no guns. Thereby overriding the law.
28Exactly, so what's the difference? Do we have any stats on how many restaurants choose put the sign? Because we can't assume that every restaurant would ignore it and post the sign and that's why it's ok.
If the restaurant owners don't like it they can post the sign. If you as a customer don't like it, only go to the places with the signs.
I just don't see where the problem is. It seems pretty reasonable to say that it can be done but the owner can say No. And as a customer you're informed of what you're walking into.
29I think its telling that very anti-gun states like NY and CA allow this to happen. I would think if there were a problem with it, they would be the first to ban it.
30"The claim that "40" states have "similar laws" to Tennessee's new guns-in-bars law is false and misleading.
No state, by statute or regulation, expressly allowed firearms to be brought into bars until the Tennessee legilsature passed Public Chapter 339, T.C.A. sec. 39-17-1305(c).
Tennessee law, unlike the law in the other 14 states that permitted carrying firearms into restaurants (but not bars) that serve alcohol, does not distinguish between bars and restaurants.
All bars and clubs on Second Avenue & Broadway in Nashville and on Beale Street in Memphis, for example, are licensed as restaurants. Tenn. Code Ann. sec. 57-4-102(27)(A).
Because bars, saloons, nightclubs and restaurants with bar areas are notorious for fights, assaults and breaches of the peace, carrying loaded guns is expressly prohibited by law in bars, nightclubs or bar areas serving alcohol in 24 states [23 now that AZ changed it's law]:
(Alaska (AK ST s 11.61.220; AK sec. 04.11.100) , Arizona [former law] (AZ ST s 4-244), Arkansas (AR ST s 5-73-306); Florida (FL ST s 790.06) Georgia (GA ST s 16-11-127), Kansas (K.S.A. 75-7c10(12)), Kentucky (KY ST s 237.110), Louisiana (LA R.S. 40:1379.3), Maine (ME ST T. 17-A s 1057), Michigan (MI ST 28.425o), Mississippi (MS ST s 45-9-101), Missouri (MO ST 571.107), Montana (MT ST 45-8-328), Nebraska (NE LEGIS 430 (2009), New Mexico (NM ST s 30-7-3), North Carolina (NC ST s 14-269.3) , North Dakota (ND ST 62.1-02-04) , Ohio (OH ST s 2923.126), Oklahoma (OK ST T. 21 s 1272.1), South Carolina (SC Code 1976 sec. 16-23-465), South Dakota (SDCL sec. 23-7-8.1), Texas (V.T.C.A., Penal Code sec. 46.03), Washington (WA ST 9.41.300(1)(d), Wyoming (W.S.1977 sec. 6-8-104).
Two states do not permit carrying handguns at all (no permits) (Illinois, 720 ILCS 5/24-1 and Wisconsin, W.S.A. 167.31(2)(b)).
Virginia law expressly prohibits carrying concealed weapons where alcohol is served. Va. Code Ann. 18.2-308(J3) (2005).
Nine states expressly prohibit handguns (firearms) in restaurants and bars (Arizona [until law was recently changed], Louisiana, Maine, Montana, North Carolina, North Dakota, New Mexico, Ohio and South Carolina).
Alaska prohibits carrying loaded firearms where alcohol is served; the law creates an affirmative defense for carrying a firearm in a restaurant (defined and limited by law to serve only beer or wine [not liquor]) if alcohol is not consumed.
Fourteen states expressly permit a concealed weapons permit holder to carry a gun into a restaurant that serves alcohol (Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, Kentucky, Michigan, Missouri, Mississippi, Nebraska, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Texas, Washington, Wyoming).
However in none of these states can a concealed loaded weapon be brought into a bar.
Five of those 14 states expressly preclude carrying a loaded weapon into areas of the restaurant primarily devoted to drinking (i.e. the bar) (Arkansas, Florida, Kentucky, Mississippi and Wyoming).
Six other states prohibit carrying guns in establishments that derive less than 50% of their total annual food and beverage sales from prepared meals (Georgia, Missouri, Nebraska, South Dakota Texas and Kansas (30%). Washington prohibits guns in 21 and up establishments. Oklahoma and Michigan prohibit carrying guns if the primary purpose of the establishment is drinking.
22 other states (Alabama, California, Colorado Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, , Idaho, Iowa Indiana, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Hampshire, New York, Nevada, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Utah, Vermont, West Virginia) have no express permission or express prohibition statutes related to carrying a gun where alcohol is served. However, these states take action under public nuisance laws when the state or city becomes aware that guns and/or shootings are occurring in bars.
http://www.drslawfirm.com/gunsinbars.html
31I think the difference is that you claim it doesn't matter since nothing has happened in the other 40 states, but it seems it may not have been put to the test. There are plenty of shootings at bars and clubs on any given weekend due to someone bringing a firearm in.
32So what does that tell us?
Even in light of all of that, if people were getting clipped off in the states that do allow it, it wouldn't be happening in a new state and it would be banned in the states with the problems.
"All bars and clubs on Second Avenue & Broadway in Nashville and on Beale Street in Memphis, for example, are licensed as restaurants." Ok so we know they're actually bars, but they legally can be claimed as restaurants. And how many shoot outs have there been?
I think you'll be hard pressed to find many states that have exactly, identically worded gun laws. We can only compare to the best of our ability.
33"There are plenty of shootings at bars and clubs on any given weekend due to someone bringing a firearm in."
A legal firearm thats being carried by a licensed gun owner?
I'd like to see the facts that back that up. And if they're not legal, then that's just more of an argument for this law.
34We have to remember there is a HUGE difference between a legal firearm and an illegal one.
And we also need to remember that if you have an illegal firearm, you're not going to give a hoot about other laws.
35"A legal firearm thats being carried by a licensed gun owner?"
Im not sure the relevance of the status of an individuals gun ownership. Do legal gun owners not commit crimes? My point was that incidents involving firearms happen now at drinking establishments. We don't need the law to allow more weapons to be brought into these places.
36There really isn't a huge difference between a legal firearm and an illegal one. They do the same things.
There is some difference between a person who legally carries a weapon and someone carrying a weapon illegally - but things like alcohol, anger and fear quickly blur the lines between them.
37I can't even express how much of a bad idea I think this is. And again, I'm pro-guns, but mixing drugs/alcohol with guns is never a good idea.
38WHOA. Wow. There is a huge difference between someone carrying who is doing it legally and someone who is doing it illegally. I can't beleive it would even be tried to be argued that there's not. That's like saying a drug dealer is no different or better than a doctor who writes a perscription.
And legal gun owners do commit crimes, in a Florida case study it was found that in the 15 years after their concealed carry laws were passed two hundreths of 1% of issued permits were revoked for "violations". Most of the violations were bringing the gun into a place where it couldn't legally be, not actually firing or causing any crime or harm.
Comparing that to illegally held firarms is a joke. There is no comparison. If you'd rather have the criminals have the only guns in the bars and restaurants that's fine, but to argue that it's wrong for those who legally have them shouldn't be there... I just can't wrap my mind around that thinking at all. It's blantantly giving an advantage to every thug. Not having a gun doesn't make anyone safer, esp when its a licensed legally held gun.
39Anyways, I have to get going. But I strongly recommend you read into this further as far as case studies and outcomes from states with concealed carry versus those without. You can find some pretty biased info out there, so its imperitive to make sure its sourced and check the source. But there is compelling evidence from the DOJ and CDC when it comes to the effictiveness of anti-gun legislation.
40"I can't even express how much of a bad idea I think this is. And again, I'm pro-guns, but mixing drugs/alcohol with guns is never a good idea."
I agree completely.
41I don't think its fair to say "never" a good idea. In theory yes, not a good idea. In reality, we have no stats to prove it makes anything worse than it already is.
42Yeah, we know you can find pretty biased information out there - the NRA is very, very busy.
43As is the Brady campaign.
44I don't know. I go out to bars all the time with my girlfriends and while we always have a good time, there have been times where guys have gotten too aggressive with some of us. The last thing I need is for that aggressive dude to also have a gun.
"Those carrying the weapons aren't allowed to drink alcohol."
I also like to know how tightly that could ever be enforced in a crowded, loud bar.
45well, often you can tell when someone is carrying if you know what to look for... sometimes you can't though, this is true.
what is interesting is that some states have very specific brandishing laws. so here you are at a bar dancing with some fine lady and what she accidently pulls up your shirt and your gun shows? technically that would be brandishing and a violation of the law.
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