Nice scare tactics.

Nothing like keeping your kids private.

--------------------------
Health Surtax: “No, it’s not punishing the rich. If I can afford to do a little bit more so that a whole bunch of families out there have a little more security, when I already have security, that’s part of being a community."

Oh my god. Yes, let's just gather up all the disabled children and decide who's worthy! Should we just euthanize them too? Or just suffer without health insurance?

I would really like some one to show me where in the bill it says that special needs children won't get coverage. Just silly. The spin on this makes me dizzy.

"The spin on this makes me dizzy."

I agree! I thought it was WAY over the line when Boehner told the massive lie saying that government was going to push euthanasia simply because they wanted to cover discussing a living will with your doctor. I didn't think a lie could get any more disgusting and low than to make people scared for their lives by lying about something that could actually save it.

But then Sarah comes along with this WHOPPER of a lie, and it just blows my mind. I thought she had more integrity than that. Not only is she using her child as a prop in political mudslinging yet again, but she is literally MAKING THINGS UP. It says more about her twisted imagination than it does about what is actually in any of the legislation that is being worked on.

Lying to people about such a fundamental thing as healthcare, to such an extent, is unforgivable. She is going to battle for the status quo that is KILLING people.

Well, that's over the top.

Doesn't she have people to read over her statements before she releases them?

She has, Organic, and they probably said "Go for it" ! Everything (ok, A LOT of what) you hear from these scaremongering people/scum is just political tactics to shoot the Democratic presidency down. They don't care about health care. It just so happens that health care is on the menu. They would do the same if it was gun control or stem cell research etc.

Deliberate misinformation. And what is scary is that people are stupid enough to fall for it. So basically, you have half of them laughing their asses off because they know they're undermining Obama's efforts to reform healthcare to prevent him from getting the political benefits if it works and the other half are just brain dead people who will believe anything you tell them, like : "OBAMA WANTS TO KILL BABIES WITH DOWN SYNDROME" !!

Sad.

She's right. 100% right. Want to see how bad government would be in the health care business? Take a look at the Veteran's hospitals and how they're run. Obama's plan should scare everyone.

I do not see where she said that obama wants to kill babies with ds in her statement. Nor do I see her implying that.

And I thought this debate couldn't get any worse. What is the government going to gain by refusing to give people the healthcare they promised? Only a swift kick out of office. What could possibly be their motivation for doing that?

Veterans healthcare has improved greatly in the past decade so if we look to it as an example of what government healthcare can be, we should be excited by the possibilities:

"Veterans organizations applaud the VA makeover, saying surveys show that most of their members are satisfied with the medical care they get. At the same time, they worry that tight budgets are forcing some veterans to wait months for an appointment.

"The quality of care has improved greatly, and we are grateful for that," said Peter S. Gaytan, director of veterans affairs for the American Legion. "But the timeliness of care is suffering. We have vets waiting in line because the funding is inadequate to meet the need."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR200508...

Here's a link & summary of a comparison of healthcare for veterans versus other patients done in 2004 - and further improvements have been implemented since then:

"Patients cared for in the VHA health system seem to receive higher-quality care than patients who receive care elsewhere. The difference was greatest in health care areas that the VHA measures for quality, suggesting that measuring quality and holding administrators responsible for maintaining high measures may be a strategy that works to improve the quality of health care.
http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/141/12/I-42

--------------------------
Health Surtax: “No, it’s not punishing the rich. If I can afford to do a little bit more so that a whole bunch of families out there have a little more security, when I already have security, that’s part of being a community."

>I do not see where she said that obama wants to kill babies with ds in her statement. Nor do I see her implying that.

Wait, really?

The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care.

Last night on the O'Reilly Factor Laura Ingrahm offered what think is a very reasonable idea. Ask a staunch Blue State to pilot the program and see how it works, volunteers to the front of the line please. Sarcasm aside I think it's a fantastic idea.

*what (I) think.......

Well didn't Massachuesetts kind of do that already Hypno? And isn't it pretty bad?

This is just from memory, but I thought someone pointed out that one of the major differences was that in Mass. benefits were extended to non-citizens?

Are we assured thats not going to happen with this plan? I thought one of the problems with this plan is that there is no solid, conrete action points on how we're going to exclude those who aren't citizens.

Maybe the plan is just to send the illegals to the death panel. Two birds, one stone.

haha terrible!!!

"Well didn't Massachusetts kind of do that already Hypno? And isn't it pretty bad?"

Massachusetts plan is Ma.'s plan it's not the finished product of whatever is going to presumably be voted on late September/early October by the National Congress. Although there are public health plans that fall short of great just like there are private plans that do the same neither private or public health proposal is synonymous with (bad plan). We kick out what doesn't work and keep what does. What ever the final plan is in the Fall I'm sure it is not going to be the Ma. plan.

It might also help it the unemployment issue...

I kid! I kid. Though I'm sure some nut job out there would vote for it.

might also help with...

you better watch out TS, with that kind of thinking someone might label you a conservative!

Okay, I was thinking it, but I just want to point out you said it!

hey if you can't poke fun at yourself...

" I thought one of the problems with this plan is that there is no solid, conrete action points on how we're going to exclude those who aren't citizens."

That is one of the biggest misrepresentations out there, that illegal immigrants would be covered. Here is a clip from NPR:

"And let's start with one claim we heard just now from Heather Liggett that the health care bill allows illegals to get free medicine. True or false?

Mr. ADAIR (from politifact.com): We gave that our lowest rating on our Truth-O-Meter: a pants on fire. The claim specifically came from a chain email claiming that there is specific language in the bill that does that. And just to the contrary, there's language that says that undocumented aliens would not be eligible for the credits under this plan. So that one got a pants on fire."

From the site:
In fact, the legislation specifically states that "undocumented aliens" will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143.

The bottom line here is the e-mail is making things up. The bill does not say anything close to "All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services."

Carlie, she isn't right.
No one is going to decide your health care options based on your level of productivity in the world. That is what she stated, and it is not based in fact. It is untrue. It is a lie.

She is exaggerating and distorting the fact that under the bill, private insurers on the Exchange would have their individual plans meet certain standards like not denying coverage because of pre-existing conditions and rescinding coverage, etc.

Do you know why you don't have to worry about that with group insurance?
Because group insurance offered through an employer ALREADY has to meet those standards to get the tax benefit. So all this provision is, is making the individual plans meet the quality standards that group plans already have to meet.

How she can sleep with herself at night after making such disgusting lies is beyond me.

It says they won't be elgible but how will they enforce that? That's what I need to know. I want to hear "We're going to do X Y and Z to make sure we're not covering people who aren't citizens."

We can't even agree to check someone's ID before they vote or go to work, so I don't feel very secure that just simply saying they're not eligible is enough.

Wait, what? I've had to produce my social security card for every job I've ever had. And I had to bring my birth certificate when I got my drivers license.

Every job I have had has asked for two forms of id. I have to show a passport and a driver's license.

But yet we're having a hard time controlling the amount of illegals working in this country. Clearly they aren't getting full time positions (maybe they are, who knows!), but if we can't regulate that, how are we going to regulate this?

And again, we can't even agree to show an ID before someone votes.

Without a concrete plan on how we're going to deny people the coverage they aren't entitled to, I don't think its going to happen.

maybe not regulate, maybe enforce is a better word.

but the best part is that it doesn't even matter.

if i'm here illegally and i go to the hospital, i'll get sent a bill.... which i'll ignore and then the taxpayers pay anyways.

Well I think the illegals working here, are mostly working under the table.

i think universal healthcare is just going to make it easier for people to take advantage of the system. and since it doesn't sound like we have anything in place to keep that from happening... no thanks.

but they are still breaking the law and working and we have no control. why would we think we'd have control over this?

Well it isn't like they can officially be issued health care under the table the same way they can be paid under the table. You can't get health care in cash or be paid health care out of an expense account. In that way maybe it is a bad comparison.

If hospitals have to start asking for IDs to access people's records, then people who are here illegally may run into a problem. But I like you would need more information about how these records and things would work to find that out.

It isn't like illegal immigrants are working corporate jobs or government jobs. They are mostly working for small business men like the guys who worked in land scape and construction whose checks I used to cash. Or they clean houses or stuff. They mostly aren't getting paid through the system.

At least that has been my experience.

but thats what I mean, are hospitals going to ask for IDs to get people's records? are they going to ask at all?

if they don't have to ask for insurance info, what grounds would they really have?

either way the bottom line is that we don't know how we're not going to let it get manipulated and thats a problem. big problem.

Why wouldn't they have to ask for insurance info? I get asked for my insurance when I go to the ER.

Look at the Netherlands which has a successful system. We should take a look. In 1941, the government introduced a mandatory health insurance plan for low- and middle-income people that provided most of the Dutch population with basic health insurance. Those with higher incomes typically purchased private insurance.

It requires all people who legally live or work in the Netherlands to buy health insurance from a private insurance company. Insurers are required to accept each applicant at a community-rated premium regardless of preexisting conditions. In 2006, all but 1.5 percent of the population had purchased health insurance in accordance with the new legislation.

The plan is financed with individuals' annual income-based contributions to the tax collector. Employers are required to compensate their employees for these contributions. In addition, all adults are required to pay premiums directly to the selected insurer, which sets its own community-rated premium. Premiums are not required for children under age 18. About two-thirds of Dutch households receive an income-related subsidy from the government—a maximum of €1,464 (about US$2,200) per household per year.

The income-based contributions are transferred to a Risk Equalization Fund, which compensates insurers for taking on high-risk enrollees. In addition, insurers can use tools to protect their interests. These include managed care techniques, such as disease management. Insurers are also permitted to provide care in their own facilities with their own staff, to control costs better and may sell other products in addition to basic health insurance, like supplemental health insurance or car insurance. Increasingly, insurers ill be allowed greater leverage in negotiating prices, service, and quality of care.

insurance companies are required to accept each applicant for basic insurance coverage. Individuals can choose from among 14 private insurance companies and several related subsidiaries. The Dutch government has set up a Web site where consumers can compare all insurers with respect to price, services, consumer satisfaction, and supplemental insurance, and compare hospitals on different sets of performance indicators.

Individuals who belong to a group—an employer, patient organization, labor union, or other legal entity—are eligible to receive a premium discount of up to 10 percent. In 2007, more than half of the population received group discounts averaging 7 percent.