I am waiting for Pelosi to say "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

She will lose her speaker ship before this over, i would bet the bank on it.

And the battle begins. Personally, I'm going to bet on the CIA in this one. Pelosi has lost her credibility.

GP this is the CIA we are chatting about. She is going to loose a lot more then just the seat of speaker.
***************
"I will marshal all the forces of darkness to hound you to an assisted suicide." - In the Loop

Pelosi is such a lying twit- adios!

Does anyone believe her? I haven't look at the polls (if there are any).

I did some poll from Rasmussen that said that 60% of people don't like her (or something to that effect).

Just 60%? Has to be more then that.
***************
"I will marshal all the forces of darkness to hound you to an assisted suicide." - In the Loop

This is a very interesting situation. Clearly she appears to be lying...and I don't think that's a stretch to say. I admit to not liking Nancy Pelosi, but I wouldn't call her a liar unless there were ample evidence. It appears as though that evidence is as ample as a Miami NCIS effort.
But the most interesting part of this is how the rest of the Democratic party will react. Remember that it was none other than Harry Reid who warned us that the surge in Iraq was a lost cause and doomed to failure: he still has his seat, as popular as ever. if tat didn't cause head scratching then this faux pas won't either. If I were mean-spirited, I would say that her Democratic supporters are more concerned with ideology than facts.
The most interesting thing to watch is how her party treats her: will they throw her under the bus or support her? I predict, as apparently has already been attempted in a news conference, she will emerge from this with something to focus the public's mind away from her. Wag the dog indeed!

IMO, the CIA has lost their credibility over the past 8 years. We are now getting more information that the FBI rejecting and removing themselves from the CIA's activities because they didn't think it was legal. Not to mention the CIA destroyed 92 tapes to cover their activities. 92 tapes!!! You really are going to place faith in an organization that admits to doctoring their history?

Not to mention, CIA head said the records he is referring to are based on MEMORIES, not actual documentation at the time:

"But agency officials also referred the media to last week's statement from CIA Director Leon Panetta, who suggested that the briefing records that Pelosi demanded be released yesterday are based on the almost seven-year-old recollections of officials present for the briefings. Panetta said Congress would have to determine for itself whose memory was most accurate."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/14/AR200905...

AND...
You also have former Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Bob Graham saying that the CIA has given him false information about the meetings HE was involved in. He said "approximately a month ago, the CIA provided him with false information about how many times and when he was briefed on enhanced interrogations." They told him they met 4 times, and they only met once!!! Once! The CIA has shown themselves to be fast and lose with the facts all around.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/14/graham-cia-gave-me-false_n_2036...

Pelosi clearly isn't a good public speaker. I am not a fan of hers, because I feel that her lack of communication skills hurts things more than helps them. But right now, the CIA has zero credibility.

Jill, here is a video from CNN. It might give you a smile.

http://thepage.time.com/video-sen-kit-bond-on-pelosis-cia-claim/

LOL it gave me a smile- that was funny- they dont give you briefings on things they are not going to use- hahaha

Panetta wasn't part of the CIA when it was briefing on the detainees so he can only go on what he's told they said - and questions already have been raised about the accuracy of the CIA's records as they claim they met with one Congressman on at least two occasions when his records show no meetings.

This is by the way, the same CIA that couldn't give Bush the evidence he wanted on Iraq's WMDs or connections to 9/11 - funny the people who suddenly are cheering its accuracy.

Let's open EVERYONE'S records, have full hearings on torture, rendition, detainees... and rid the government of every politician who violated the Constitution, international and U.S. law and make sure the U.S. never resorts to such immoral conduct again.

LOL- well there wont be a politician left if we got rid of the ones who break laws and violate constitution

No, he goes by the minutes of the meetings, and also there were slides used. You can't really believe that Leon Panneta is a shill for the Bush administration? Put all the principles under oath, then see what everyone says. Look at least one of them is wrong either Panneta or Pelosi. It is possible for both be wrong, but impossible for both to be right. I have never heard or read about anyone ever at anytime question either Panneta's intelligence or integrity. Did you see Pelosie's pathetic press conference today? My God she had to shuffle through papers to find her prepared statement, a statement she just read minutes before. Someone speaking the truth and confidence does not fall apart at a press conference they called themselves like she did. After that performance I knew eventually the Democrats will have to throw her off the boat, before she sinks them all.

Panetta and Pelosi are side issues. Start with who ordered criminal acts, then work your way down through the rest of them.

Laurel, if you honestly believe every politician breaks the law and violates the constitution I hope you have the guts to avoid voting. What decent person would intentionally perpetuate a system like that?

stephley it was said in gest- I wont remark to the rest of your attacking statement either.

Panetta and Pelosi are far from side issues, it goes to the credibility of the accuser. Is her position on enhanced interrogation principled or political? It is like rendition, warrantless phone taps, Iraq, military tribunals, and indeterminate incarceration, all things that Democrats railed about as being illegal and immoral, and are now part of a Democrat controlled Government official policy. Can Guantanamo be far behind?

Everybody does it, right Gramps?

Laurel, I didn't attack you - you made a startling comment and I responded.

I'm no fan of Pelosi but I agree with Jillness this tit for tat between Pelosi and the CIA is like the pot calling the kettle black. Their credibility was no better off than hers is now.

The fact of the matter is we shouldn't be listening to anyone of them Pelosi or Panetta. The truth is writing, produce the truth and it's over. I don't understand why we're being made to endure the ridiculous mud slinging when this can be brought to an end with some certitude.

IMO I'm siding with the CIA because at least they say they have it in writing to back themselves up. I think Pelosi is having way too many senior moments and her public speaking is just as bad as G.W.B.

I understand why Pelosi is being targeted, but it's main purpose is to take the focus off Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. No one is talking about the main perps in this whole thing, anymore, are they? Shift of focus, anyone?

You've got to wonder why people who insist there was no illegal activity are so anxious to distract.

Well, since the last time water boarding was used in August, 2002. Then if the same people who have screamed the loudest about criminal activity knew about the activity in 2002, and said nothing, did nothing, wrote nothing, then the whole thing becomes a political witch hunt, for political gain. Accusing the CIA of lying to congress, will bring this to a head, Just like leaks from the CIA undermined Bush administration, you better believe CIA will leak like a sieve now, to undermine Pelosi.

All I know is Pelosi gets elected by the people. The CIA does not.

One of them has a very good reason to lie, and it ain't the CIA.

I am curious at the mention of the FBI withdrawing from joint efforts with the CIA. Do you really think either organization trusts each other? If they did they would have shared more info with each other in the past which proved to be a big problem for us. Also looking back, which seem to be a big past time here, with the FBI's record do you think they are more truthful then the CIA?

Do you also beleive that as the head of the CIA, Panetta does not have the ability to walk into the basement and pull whatever files he so chooses? This mess is one person's fault for opening this Pandora's box.

Pelosi will be out. She is now the albatross around the Parties neck. She has made more enemies then she can handle. And I don't believe Reid, Murtha or Schumer have her back unless they are going to be pushing her out the door.
***************
"I will marshal all the forces of darkness to hound you to an assisted suicide." - In the Loop

"One of them has a very good reason to lie, and it ain't the CIA"

REALLY? Is that why they destroyed 92 tapes, huh? Because they have no reason to cover up their actions. We have caught the CIA from this time period in MANY lies so far, the most recent update came in March. How you can trust that organization is beyond me.

And the comment about "they don't brief you on what they aren't doing" raises some concerns. So they go ahead and take actions that may or may not be legal BEFORE they inform their congressional counter parts?? That seems illegal in an of itself. Essentially, his quote makes Pelosi's involvement inconsequential. If they inform her about things that have already happen, how is she supposed to stop it?

Not to mention that she wasn't the one that ordered or authorized these actions. It is like blaming the inept security guard at a bank, instead of the actual bank robber for the crime!

Certain things are not talked about in meetings where there are aides present. According to former Senate Intelligence Chairman Bob Graham, aides can't be present when they talk about things such as waterboarding, and it appears that her aides were with her in these meetings (limiting what could have been discussed).

Once again, the records that Panetta is referring to were written recently, not at the time of the meetings, and the CIA has already been caught lying about meetings with other congressional leaders. I don't see how records like that have any credibility with any of you, but I guess when you are out for liberal blood anything will do.

I think it is quite silly that Republicans are going after Pelosi...they are going to get caught in a trap when the resulting investigation takes down Bush, Cheney, and the rest of them. People like Gingrich are shooting their party in the foot when they demand Pelosi be taken down. It will come around to bite them in the bootie.

"The truth is writing, produce the truth and it's over"

I wish this was the case, but the CIA has admittedly destroyed documentation and kept faulty records when it came to intelligence meetings held with other congress members. Plus, the people who attended these meetings aren't allowed to take notes about what they are discussing. Everyone's records aren't worth squat when it comes to the CIA...which is actually pretty frightening.

I dont think the CIA lies nearly as much as a politician does.

Yes they destroyed the tapes, there could be a number of reasons. I don't think there is a person among us who hasn't shredded company documents and not always because they are incendiary. Dont we all shred our credit cards bills? Are we ALL trying to hide something?

If you want to beleive the CIA is corrupt, you will. That's fine.

This admin has shown since day one its willingness to throw the CIA under the bus, whether substantiated or not. Part of me almost wonders if there even WILL be a CIA after Obama is done.

But I have no problem releasing the paperwork the CIA has to back up what they say, I'm sure they have it somewhere and since nothing is sacred anymore or important to national security, I say bring it on.

You say the GOP will get caught with this biting them in the butt, I think its clear that NP and everyone else who finds it now advantageous to re-write history will find it biting them in the butt.

But the only way to find out for sure is to start sifting through paperwork.

Jill - The Obama admin hasn't been so forthcoming with releasing all the info around torture either, remember the pages and pages of blacked out info on the toture memmos? Not exactly releasing all the truth.

Panetta said: "Our contemporaneous records from September 2002 indicate that CIA officers briefed truthfully on the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah, describing 'the enhanced techniques that had been employed,'" he said.

Why do you think these have been destroyed or doctored?

He also said, "The CIA says detailed agency notes on briefings for lawmakers were available for review by qualified congressional staff"

So why do we think all these have been doctored?

You guys are going to get hurt, pointing in so many different directions all at once.

Another productive comment as usual.

"The Obama admin hasn't been so forthcoming with releasing all the info around torture either, remember the pages and pages of blacked out info on the toture memmos? Not exactly releasing all the truth."

Releasing information to the world is far different from DESTROYING the documentation. Those are 2 very different actions. And the CIA threw themselves under the bus. They admitted they destroyed the tapes long ago, they only just recently upped the number that they say was destroyed (CIA has no consistency). They lie, then they lie about their lies.

"Why do you think these have been destroyed or doctored?"

I have said this 2 times now, but I guess I am not being clear. The documents that detail what happened in those meetings were written years after they occurred. It was from people's memories. Memories that have been admittedly in error in regards to the records of other members of congress.

Washington Post:
"But agency officials also referred the media to last week's statement from CIA Director Leon Panetta, who suggested that the briefing records that Pelosi demanded be released yesterday are based on the almost seven-year-old recollections of officials present for the briefings. Panetta said Congress would have to determine for itself whose memory was most accurate."

The CIA director is saying the best records we have to go on are based on memory. That says something.

As for Pelosi:
"she has maintained consistently for the past 18 months, that she was told only that the Justice Department had provided a legal basis for using waterboarding or other harsh techniques in future interrogations."

She isn't articulate, but her story hasn't changed for 18 months. Far more than you can say for the CIA. Plus, when this supposed meeting did take place, they had already waterboarded the man 83 times. It isn't as if she could stop what already happened.

Hypo - you said everything I would want to say. Personally I'd love to see her gone, she is too polarizing a Speaker and I think she's a hinderance to the Obama adminstration.

The statement from Panetta this week says "contemporaneous" records which means written at the SAME TIME. I'll agree that theres some wobbling here that is troubling, but if he says they have records from the same time I'll beleive him until he can't produce them.

She could always have tried to stop what was happening, she could have complained, there are channels for it. She couldn't have erased the past but if she wanted to she could have made a big enough stink to keep it from happening again. And she's a smart lady, she KNOWS that. She knows the channels she could have taken but she didn't.

Her story has been all along that the CIA lied but she doesn't have any proof.

Is this memo: http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/enhanced-in...

The one you say is the one from memory?

Yes agree Jillness there is a reason they're called a covert agency...they do destroy information that is part of the job. However in regards to this matter they say they have proof in writing that Pelosi got the information they're saying she got. I say stop yappin and let's see it.

Time will tell who knew what and when. I do not believe it will be measured in years either. Whatever way it goes, whoever is proved right, will improve the integrity of our country.

"Whatever way it goes, whoever is proved right, will improve the integrity of our country."

I dont' think that this matter with Pelosi is what the integrity of our country rests on. Even if Pelosi didn't do her job well, that doesn't remove the fact that they were 1.) already waterboarding before they supposedly told her 2.) Members of the Bush Administration, the Justice Department, and the CIA wrote memos that gave unfactual documentation to support waterboarding and authorized its use. Nancy Pelosi is not the perpetrator here, although I am sure people would love a scapegoat.

Haus, that document you posted has issues. Bob Graham said that staff could NOT be present if they were discussing waterboarding, and that doc shows that staff were present for both his and Nancy Pelosi's meetings on waterboarding. Secondly, as I mentioned before, the meetings they listed for Bob Graham were inaccurate, and he is on that document. It is very possible that document is not accurate.

I am not a big fan of Nancy's, and if she violated the public trust she should be punished. But there are people who had MUCH more responsibility in this than she did. To lay it all at her doorstep is disingenuous, IMO.

I don't think we are laying it all on her doorstep. I think they are trying to show that there were several others who had opportunities to speak up in the initial stages, and chose not to.

Jillness, I must disagree with you when you say " Members of the Bush Administration, the Justice Department, and the CIA wrote memos that gave unfactual documentation to support waterboarding and authorized its use".

In fact the evidence so far presented proves the opposite. Merely because accusations are made and echoed do not facts make. I have seen nothing presented other then Pelosi verbal accusations and charges, and echoed by her supporters, in an ever changing context as facts are presented documenting, and I am being charitable here. contradictions in Pelosi's statements.

There is an early argument here which seems to be suggesting that because the CIA destroyed tapes, they MUST also be lying about telling Pelosi about waterboarding. Don't look now, but a non sequitur is rearing its ugly head. I fail to see even a modest necessary connection unless the entire CIA were contained in about three small rooms and everyone knew what the other person was doing. The CIA is a huge organization and finding things in which it has delivered incorrect information is probably pretty easy. Nevertheless, I doubt that this will amount to discrediting the subject matters discussed with Nancy Pelosi.

When I was a sophomore in college, I believed in fair play and that the world was screwed up simply because we have so many dishonest people trying to get away with things. Although probably right about that, the way I thought that we could correct the situation was to demand that our own government tell us all the things it was doing and leave it to the people to either approve or disapprove. That's the moral high road, never stooping to the level of our enemies, as has been a common phrase for generations. The trouble is that it's such a lofty position that nothing real ever gets accomplished. It's a great world to live in and everyone should be there at least once in his or her life. I think that Jilli and Staph are in that idealistic place now.

Practicality is far more important an issue than anything else. If a family member were being held by a terrorist, what would one do to make that terrorist talk? I tend to think that each of us would do much worse than waterboarding, if we thought that might be effective. Moreover, in the present issue, getting information quickly was the important issue. Even President Obama has had to retreat from his assertion that no valuable info was extracted. He is now speaking of alternative means of extracting that information. This is just another method of taking style over substance, which, frankly, has been the hallmark of his entire career.

Would we care what anyone thought about what we did to get life saving information about our loved ones? I seriously doubt it. I believe that each of us would do what we thought necessary. Moreover, there is a greater issue concerning intent which makes an act correct and I think that's a critical argument.

A serious fundamental difference concerning what this subject matter is about, is the difference why it is implemented. Our enemies inflict torture in order to cause pain: they aren't after information. Our efforts are for the extraction of information. This represents a fundamental difference in morality which the left will not acknowledge.

However carrying a HUGE chip on one's shoulder against the Bush administration's supposed corruption of the CIA isn't all that cogent, although the anger and zeal is admirable. I think Pelosi is clearly lying, judging by her behavior. However I think I will wait and see what kind of documentation the CIA produces before I start condemning anything further.

Anyone who makes a moral equivalence between a strictly controlled, timed and supervised water boarding, and beheading, gauging out eyes, or rape (both sexes), cathodes placed on the most sensitive parts of the anatomy and the shocking them with electricity, needs to do a bit of self reflection, maybe even speak to someone who actually has explored concepts like morality and ethics.

Once again, our morality is not determined by whether or people behave better or worse than we do. 'Everybody does it' and 'they're worse' are not valid, adult justifications. They're not really valid past the third grade.

Once again you provide fuel for the argument I made, although I fear you will not accept the moral difference: you fail to allow for any distinguishing characteristics between the policeman who fires his gun back at an outlaw who fires at him. To you, incorrectly, they are both equally egregious. Your argument which you continue to parrot is not even applicable.

"CIA director says Pelosi received the truth.."

and Pelosi just admitted she was in fact briefed in 2003 about the techniques. Who's the liar now Steph?

Impeach Pelosi, get her the h377 out of the Congress, where she is a major embarrassment.

Well good now that that's out of the way let's get on with the real debate. Is water boarding legal? That is the question? Unfortunately we'll have to wait for these bozos to sweep up the CIA/Pelosi after math before they can get down to the business of telling us.

do you go by the geneva convention?
***************
"I will marshal all the forces of darkness to hound you to an assisted suicide." - In the Loop

Do I?! You mean do we as a nation, we did sign it. Or does our word mean nothing? Now that is the question.

Lord I just asked a question no need to jump on your moral high horse. And by the GC WB if okay so i guess that settled that. Geez.
***************
"I will marshal all the forces of darkness to hound you to an assisted suicide." - In the Loop

LOL...I'm on no high horse and any of the long time regulars will vouch for that. If the GC does say it is alright than we should challenge the minions who point out that it says it does not allow for WB. As I said we'll have to wait for the great debate to had on the hill so legal minds can tell us because I'm certainly in position to say yes or no.

*in (no)position......